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Poll Question: Who was the WEAKEST Official World Chess Champion?
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Steinitz    
  17 (35.4%)
Lasker    
  1 (2.1%)
Alekhine    
  1 (2.1%)
Euwe    
  21 (43.8%)
Botvinnik    
  0 (0.0%)
Smyslov    
  1 (2.1%)
Tal    
  2 (4.2%)
Petrosian    
  3 (6.2%)
Spassky    
  2 (4.2%)
Karpov    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 48
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FIDE KO (Read 32084 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #80 - 08/31/05 at 23:15:01
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Hollandais, c'est une sauce, non?  Ce n'est pas de pays des champions du monde!  
« Last Edit: 09/02/05 at 21:22:33 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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MNb
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #79 - 08/31/05 at 22:40:31
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Why? Because you can't stand the Dutch flag being rotated 90 degrees, compared to the French flag?
Because you can't stand the only French WCh being beaten by a Dutchman?  Grin
  

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bulgroz
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #78 - 08/31/05 at 05:46:49
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I have voted for Euwe.

Capablanca is missing, with Fischer, Kasparov and Kramnik !
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #77 - 08/09/05 at 12:16:07
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Quote:
Ok TJ & Smyslov-fan. I did manage to find something which verifies what i read in the papers bout Karpov being a commie.

you can find it at http://chess-now.com/clashofthetitans.htm

The excerpt of that article i paste below:

• On his relationship with Anatoly Karpov, Boris said it has vastly improved and that Anatoly and he are very close. He felt it was possibly the fact that their best days of chess are over and that they are both doing similar things about promoting chess around the world.
   Boris also said he pleaded with Karpov to make sure there was a match in 1975. He felt for the good of the game that chess needed the continuity in the World Championship cycle and he felt if a match had taken place that Fischer would have won because Karpov did not have the experience necessary to compete at that level. Since Karpov was a loyal communist party member, and Boris never was, Karpov took the party line which was that the Soviets wanted the title back very seriously and therefore could not agree to all the terms that Fischer wanted for the match. What a loss to chess history that was.

conclusion : They were both commies



Who gives a flaming frig who is a Communist?  This board is about chess; clear out of here with your McCarthyite crap.

Oh, and that's a load of baloney about the CPSU being responsible for no match in 1975.  Basically no one, apart from a few American crypto-fascists, thinks that Fischer's terms for the match were remotely fair.  Soviet chess would have loved for Karpov to play Fischer, who hadn't played a game of serious chess since leaving Reykjavik.

  

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MNb
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #76 - 08/09/05 at 11:09:43
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"So even during Karpov & Kasparov matches, me mate supported Kaspy cos he saw it as a match against communism."
I am sorry, but this is typical USA cold war nonsense. During the Reagan government many Americans and Europeans needed a dissident chess hero and Kasparov was the obvious choice, non regarding the facts.
Facts are: as a child Kasparov was guided by Botvinnik, a very convinced communist. Later Kasparov was protected by Aleev, who was an important party apparatsjik in Azerbeidzjan from 1980 until 1991 and afterwards became president of the new republic.
If you need a rebel against Sovjet communism, than Spassky is the best choice. He refused to sign the party petition against Kortsjnoj after his departure to the west. Even a better choice is Boris Guljko with three hunger strikes in the early 80's. What did the hypocrite Kasparov ever do to help him? Exactly, nothing except having a big mouth.
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #75 - 08/07/05 at 08:55:22
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Ok TJ & Smyslov-fan. I did manage to find something which verifies what i read in the papers bout Karpov being a commie.

you can find it at http://chess-now.com/clashofthetitans.htm

The excerpt of that article i paste below:

• On his relationship with Anatoly Karpov, Boris said it has vastly improved and that Anatoly and he are very close. He felt it was possibly the fact that their best days of chess are over and that they are both doing similar things about promoting chess around the world.
   Boris also said he pleaded with Karpov to make sure there was a match in 1975. He felt for the good of the game that chess needed the continuity in the World Championship cycle and he felt if a match had taken place that Fischer would have won because Karpov did not have the experience necessary to compete at that level. Since Karpov was a loyal communist party member, and Boris never was, Karpov took the party line which was that the Soviets wanted the title back very seriously and therefore could not agree to all the terms that Fischer wanted for the match. What a loss to chess history that was.

conclusion : They were both commies
  

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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #74 - 08/07/05 at 08:35:23
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Ok! Thanks very much TJ & Smyslov-Fan. I never knew Garry was a commie before this. That he was forced to become one is even more unique i must say  Grin

Hmmm..... regarding Karpov...... He could've been forced too, TJ! Good argument there!  But assuming that  the newspapers were correct..... Then (jus maybe) he wasnt mentioned in that article u mentioned cos karpov joined willingly. I do vaguely recall that he was quite an  active member. Then again.... i (or rather the papers) could be wrong.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #73 - 08/07/05 at 04:18:54
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Ehlvest's The Story of a Chess Player p 37, also indicate that Garry was a commie member:

Some players did become Communists-most notably, Garry Kasparov and Alexander Beliavsky. I believe, however, that in Kasparov's case there was not much choice in becoming a member[...]

Since he doesn't mention Karpov after 'most notably' I suppose Smyslov_Fan is right here too, though I was also under the impression that Karpov was a member - after all, if Garry was forced to become one, why wouldn't they do the same to the World Champ?
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #72 - 08/07/05 at 01:57:45
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Smyslov-fan,

Im, afraid I cant provide websites to prove the validity over what ive written about karpov & kaspy. All that i've written came from what i remembered from the newspapers eons & eons ago!  It was the papers which said that karpov was a member of the communist party. I remembered it well cos it was such a unique piece of info - world chess champ + communist party member!

Anyway, if the current sources say otherwise, i back down. Lips Sealed. Perhaps even papers can make mistakes too i suppose. Shocked
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #71 - 08/07/05 at 01:31:52
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Woofwoof,

I love to argue as much as the next guy, and probably a whole lot more.  8)

However, there just isn't a point in arguing over something that can be looked up.  It's like, well, arguing over facts.

Kasparov did indeed join the Party in part because he was an outsider and Karpov, who gained all the benefits of being the ultimate insider, never had to join.  When you find websites that show otherwise, let me know.

In the mean time, I may boither to look it up in any of a number of different sources.
  
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woofwoof
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #70 - 08/05/05 at 19:44:53
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Quote:
Therefore Kasparov (born Weinstein) was a Party member but Karpov (who enjoyed all the favors of a super star in the USSR) was not.


It's the other way round. Karpov was the member of the Communist Party, Kasparov was a 'rebel'. I remember this very clearly cos one of my mates hated Karpov for this very reason. So even during Karpov & Kasparov matches, me mate supported Kaspy cos he saw it as a match against communism. There was animosity betn the two because of their respective political leanings. Now with Kaspy out of chess...... he formed his own political party against Putin. So it can clearly be seen that Kaspy was rebel from the very beginning!
  

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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #69 - 08/05/05 at 19:42:15
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I consulted Jeff Sonas site www.chessmetrics.com to find an answer.

Euwe has to lowest average peak rating for all time spans (1,2,3,4,5,10, 15 and 20 years) of all World Champions. Spassky has the second lowest except for 20 years where Tal is second lowest and Spassky third lowest.

On the other hand Spassky has lowest number of months ranked as number 1 in the world: 5 months in 1966. Euwe was ranked no. 1 for 8 months in 1936 and 6 months in 1937.

So maybe its a tie between Euwe and Spassky.

Steinitz has got 35% of the votes. I don't understand how the voters reasoned considering that Steinitz was the dominating player in the world during 1870's and 1880's, winning most tournaments and beating all rivals. Unlike Lasker he didn't avoid the strongest opponents.
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #68 - 08/05/05 at 18:54:46
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History is interesting.  I've got nothing against history.  I just wanted to say something about the upsdide-down idea of debating which one of a group of very strong players was the "weakest".  The arguments concerning "who was a nazi" and if Keres was forced to let Botvinnik win and stuff like that, well, go ahead and figure it out.  I'm not interested enough now in that stuff to comment.  Doesn't mean it's not interesting.   Grin
  
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #67 - 08/05/05 at 17:26:27
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I'll bypass the historical discussion, and slightly get back to the topic.


???

Wow!  Well that clears that up.  And here I was thinking I had a chance of beating the consensus weakest champion...

We may be playing with Cleopatra's nose a little bit here, but history is very relevant and rather interesting.  It probably doesn't make me a better player, but I do like to know about chess history, and these kinds of musings can make for pleasant diversions from all the Fritz-generated variations on all the other discussion threads.
  

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lost highway
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Re: Weakest Official World Champion (excluding FID
Reply #66 - 08/05/05 at 16:57:32
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I'll bypass the historical discussion, and slightly get back to the topic. 

These guys were all very strong players (some still are).  How else could they have got to the top?  For patzers like us (yes, including me) to debate which of them was the "weakest" seems silly.  That's like saying a 500 pound grizzly bear is "weaker" than a 600 pound grizzly, who is "weaker" than a 700 pound grizzly, etc.  They will all kill you quite easily.   Wink

Imagine going to a boxing discussion site, if one exists, and finding boxing fans arguing about which heavyweight champ was "the weakest."  Was Jack Dempsey "weaker" than Rocky Marciano?  Was Larry Holmes "weaker" than Floyd Patterson?
  
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